Interview by Cecilia Chan Chi Man
Can you tell the readers of the newsletter a bit about yourself?
I'm from the Netherlands. After I finished my BA and MPhil degrees in Chinese Studies at CCS (then the Centre for East Asian Studies), I stayed with the Centre for another year as a teaching assistant. When I left CUHK, I wanted to give back to the community I had then been a part of for seven years, so I joined HelperChoice, a social impact start-up that helps domestic helpers find jobs at no cost. After one year with HelperChoice, I had the opportunity to go to Southern and Eastern Africa for six months with an NGO exploring how to help local social impact start-ups succeed. I came back to Hong Kong in 2017 and that's when I stumbled upon Telum Media, which is also a start-up company and my current place of work.
Can you tell us how you decided to major in Chinese Studies and come to CUHK?
I've always wanted to study languages. Besides Dutch, which is my mother tongue, I learnt English, French and German in school. I contemplated studying French and Italian at one point. Even though they didn't say it at the time, my parents weren't thrilled. When my mother started to go to China for business she came back with lots of stories. It sounded so different. I started to read more about China and eventually decided to go to China for a year to study Mandarin. The plan was to come back to the Netherlands for university. When I was home during the Chinese New Year break, my dad asked me what I wanted to do after my year in China. At the time, I thought I wanted to be at home and study China in the Netherlands, but my dad asked, "Are you sure? Don't you want to go to Hong Kong or somewhere else?" I even visited various tertiary education institutions in Europe. But I quickly realized that the Netherlands I left was not the same Netherlands I came back to. That is not to say that the Netherlands had changed, it was more because I changed – the way I saw the world was different. That's when I started to seriously consider going somewhere else for university; and Hong Kong seemed like a great place.
I thought the programme at CUHK would fit me best – I liked the multi-disciplinary dimension of the programme and the flexibility of taking courses in different departments. Another reason I was more eager to come to Hong Kong is that while studying China from within would be better for my Chinese, I didn't feel like all topics can be discussed freely there. If one wants to properly understand contemporary Chinese society, it is important to be able to talk about everything. That does not necessarily mean that one discourse is better than another, but it is fundamental that all discourses can be considered, so students can come to their own understandings and conclusions. I feel like Hong Kong and CUHK foster that kind of academic environment because it has professors from China, the US and Europe and they all have different backgrounds. Therefore, students are exposed to many different perspectives. I still remember listening to my Anthropology professor talk about being part of the 1989 student movement in China during my first year at CCS. The personal experience she shared with us was very different from what I had grown accustomed to hearing in the West. I became aware that there are many different ways of looking at the world.
When you were a student, you wrote once in an article that you and your Chinese friends don't quite seem to understand each other during your year of learning Mandarin in Beijing. What did you mean? Do you think you now have a better understanding of China and its people?
When I was writing that, I was looking back at my first encounter with and my first year in China. As I was reflecting, I realized that it actually may be I myself who didn't understand my Chinese friends. The way we grow up and the community we grow up in shape how we view the world. So when I was 18 years old and abroad, I was shocked. In the beginning, I did not quite understand why my Chinese friends would do certain things. One obvious example would be the language we communicate in. I grew up in the Netherlands being taught that it is rude not to include everyone in a conversation. Therefore, if one person in a group does not understand Dutch, everyone would naturally switch to English so no one would be left out. But that is not necessarily the case in China or Hong Kong, sometimes people continue to talk in Chinese in these situations. I used to think that was rude because I have always learnt to be inclusive. Of course, expats who live in a foreign place should also make an effort to learn the local language (and I have, which makes life a lot easier!). Eventually, I realized that not everyone thinks about the issue in the same way: inclusion into conversations comes in different ways.
Another story where living and experiencing the culture made me see the world differently concerns diet. I am not a frequent meat eater, I always preferred veggies more. When I lived with a host family in Shijiazhuang for a month, they took me out to McDonald's one day and I had a burger, because there are just not many options at McDonald's. At other meals I didn't eat a lot of meat and would generally opt for the vegetables when we had home-cooked meals. Gradually, I noticed that we went to McDonald's and Pizza Hut and other Western places more and more often. Honestly, I don't quite enjoy them, but I will always order something and eat with everyone else. I did not find out until towards the end of my stay with my host family that they took me out to those Western chain restaurants because that was the only time when they would see me consume meat. They thought I wasn't fed properly because I would usually go for the non-meat dishes at home. They felt they were not taking proper care of me because I did not include meat in my diet. For some people in China, a meal without a certain amount of meat is not considered a full or a balanced one; and consuming a meat-heavy diet is also how economic prosperity manifests in Chinese society. But back then, I did not have this understanding and I just thought it was strange that we kept going to McDonald's and Pizza Hut. Looking back at it now, I must have seemed so strange to my host family. After all these experiences and years in Hong Kong, I believe I can say I have a better understanding.
Can you share some memorable moments from your time at CCS and CUHK?
I remember writing my first paper as an MPhil student. Prof. Kiely read it and he returned to me one and a half pages of comments and feedback, which is almost the same length as, if not even longer than, my paper. That was a surprising moment to me because as an undergraduate student the feedback I received is usually shorter, such as "great!" or "maybe you can expand a little bit on this point." They were never 1.5 pages of typed comments on what I could do better. I've always wanted more feedback from my teachers because I think that is more conducive to learning than getting easy As, but I was still very shocked by the amount of feedback Prof. Kiely offered me and I appreciated it.
Can you describe a typical day at work for us? What do you like about your current job?
Basically, I'm setting up our client management function for the Greater China area. We're five years old and going through cycles of professionalisation. It's a lot of fun being part of strategic thinking and planning. An average day for me would involve meeting clients for coffee to catch up and see how things are going. My job also includes onboarding new clients and providing refresher sessions for existing clients. After that, I'll go back to the office and chat with different teams to see what needs to be worked on. Occasionally, I also do interviews or write feature articles. My days at the office are not always the same and I like it because it keeps things interesting. I also like that I get to be out of the office often.
This actually brings me to a piece of advice for graduating students who are job hunting: get to know yourself well. Finding a perfect first job may be difficult, but use your first job to find out what kind of person you are and what kind of work you enjoy. For example, if you like to be out of the office more, find work that requires this, for example through client work or field trips and research; if you are more of an introvert, then maybe avoid jobs in which socialising is necessary. Try to figure yourself out with your first job and plan your future career based on the information you have on yourself.
Do you think the knowledge and skills you learnt at CCS help you at your job?
Yes. I am very grateful for having done an Arts degree. Most people may not see it that way, but I think a Bachelor of Arts degree gives you soft skills such as strategic communication as well as creative and critical thinking. It has also trained me on formulating arguments effectively. I think these skills are underrated but they really help me do well at my job.
Do you miss anything about being a student at CCS? Why?
I miss the freedom. I love my current job. I am lucky to have a nine-to-six job and I usually get to leave work on time and have a satisfying life outside of work. But that's not the same as being a student – I enjoyed the freedom to travel and all the free time I had to read and think critically. When you're working, you don't always have the time or energy to do so. When I was a student, learning was my job. Other than going to classes, studying and handing in work on time, there aren't a lot of other important responsibilities. It's a relatively carefree life. I hope current students will enjoy their time and use it to find themselves.
Do you want to say anything to our current CCS students?
Firstly, about school, don't be overly obsessed with grades. Your GPA may be important for your first job, but after that, no one will really ask, "Why did you get a 3.1 GPA rather than a 3.2?" In the job market, it really does not matter that much. So don't take courses for easy A's or shy away from them because you think the professor is going to be tough. Take courses for the learning experience. Take yourself seriously, work hard, but don't be overly concerned about the grade. Try different things and find out who you are and what you want. Finding yourself and learning to be comfortable in your own skin is so much more important.
Secondly, about job hunting, don't be discouraged if job searching has been difficult. Finding your first job is always the hardest, but as you get more experience it gets easier. It really depends on what you want. Do you need a job because you need the money for survival? Or are you looking for a job which suits you and will give you satisfaction? Finding the latter is definitely more difficult and it means that you need to do a lot of research about the various positions you are interested in. Find something that you can do for at least one to two years. Companies tend to want stability in their staff, so if you are changing jobs frequently (like every six months), then it might not necessarily be good for you.
Finally, be happy. For me, "doing well" in life means being happy with the life you choose to live. It doesn't matter if you have a university degree and choose to become a hairdresser if that's where your passion lies. At the end of the day, it depends on what you want and what makes you happy. If becoming CEO of an investment bank makes you happy, that's absolutely great. But don't be stuck at a job you are not happy with just because that is what society defines as success. I understand the pressure and that I come from a privileged background to be able to say that. Nevertheless, I do think we undervalue happiness in Hong Kong. People sometimes commit to jobs because their parents want them to or because of the prestige and the high income. But if you are absolutely miserable, what's the point? You only live once. It does not mean that you are completely reckless, but be brave and be open to new things. Obviously, do work hard, but only if that is what makes you happy.
